 | Stewarts of Balquhidder
Genealogical Discussions for Clan Stewart of Balquhidder.
http://www.chuckspeed.com/balquhidder/balquhidder%20stewarts.html
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waukmill
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 Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 2:25 pm Post subject: Stewarts of Hythie |
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I'd like to introduce myself as the great grandson of James S.(Stuart)Walker recorded on the Stewarts of Hythie web page.
My family has known that John Stewart and Jean Leighton were our ancestors for a number of generations. What had thrown me off the trail was the fact that their first born was named James (my ancestor). For this reason it seemed likely that his father was named James. I thought the Stewarts of Hythie had migrated from neighboring Parish of Strichen from the northwest where there seemed to be an enclave of Stewarts in the early to mid 18th century. That I believed until I discovered this website before Christmas.
I found these records in the Old Deer concerning William Stewart:
19 Aug 1760
William Stewart in Longside marries Elspet Davidson in Old Deer
12 Aug 1762
Twins Margaret & Mary are born to William Stewart and Elspet Davidson in Hythie.
9 Dec 1762
William Stewart a married man has an illegitimate son named Alexander by widow Jean Warrender.(Kirk Sessions Minutes are missing for this time period)
19 May 1764
Son Alexander Stewart is born to William Stewart and Elspet Davidson in Hythie.
I have never found a christening record for John Stewart which leads me to believe that either he was born prior to the marriage of William and Elspet or his mother was Jean Warrender and Elspet Davidson his stepmother.
The burial ground at Fetterangus is closest to Hythie and it there that I found a burial for William Stewart and Elspet Davidson and son John Stewart. I have checked the OPR burials for Old Deer and have found nothing for William, John, Elspet or William's father Donald.
Here is a transcription of the Stuart Monument at the Fetterangus Burial Ground:
Fetterangus # 232
To the memory of William Stuart who lived in Nether Hythie d. 26 May 1787 aged 60; his spouse Elspet Davidson d. 23 Aug 1791 aged 61. John Stewart late in Hythie d. 12 Oct. 1837 aged 50? [age was probably unclear on the stone]
Jean Stewart ms Leighton's statutory death record records her death in Hythie and burial at Fetterangus in 1855.
Add the burial of Donald Stewart as per George Stewart's papers.
I don't believe the Stewarts were owners of the lands of Hythie. The various census returns record them as crofters which implies they were tenants. I checked the Wills and Testaments for the era and found nothing. I don't think it would worthwhile to check the sasine records for this reason. The only other avenue of research would be records in Longside were William was residing prior to his marriage to Elspet
Does anybody have information concerning this issue?
Are there anymore letters to be found of George Stewart or his sister?
Best wishes
Stephen |
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Ryk
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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Stephen
Welcome to the group! Thanks for your posting above and for the additional information. Thanks also for the additional information you sent via email per below.
As you are a descendant of the Stewarts of Ardvorlich, I have upgraded you to Full Member status which allows you now to access the whole forum and post in all sections. You can now also access our private Members Only forums which should now be visible on the main page.
I am also moving this thread to the Stewarts of Ardvorlich section.
| Stephen via email wrote: | You have this posted on the Hythie web page:
Mary STEWART b: 1828 in Hythie, Old Deer, Aberdeenshire, Scotland. Mary is found in 1841 residing at Upper Hythie with her parents. She is not found with her parents in 1851. Some on-line genealogies show her as identical with her sister Marjory/May, but both sisters are found residing together with their parents in 1841 and thus could not be identical.
On 3 Oct 1827 James Stewart and Dorothea's son John was christened in Old Deer.
On 27 Mar 1829 James Stewart and Dorothea's son James was christened in Old Deer.
Then on 31 May 1829 according to the family monument in the Old Deer kirk yard son John died aged 1.
The interval between the two births is 18 months. When you allow for nursing when a woman is infertile I can't see another child being born between the births of John and James.
The Mary Stewart recorded in the 1841 census probably was a relative. |
Excellent deduction there. Your suggestion seems quite reasonable. I will update the Hythie page asap with this new information.
If you have any questions please ask.
Ryk
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Ryk Brown
Descendant of the Stewarts of Dalveich (Ardvorlich)
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Ryk
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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Stephen
Supplementary to above:
| Quote: | | My family has known that John Stewart and Jean Leighton were our ancestors for a number of generations.... I thought the Stewarts of Hythie had migrated from neighboring Parish of Strichen.... That I believed until I discovered this website before Christmas. |
Well, I'm very glad that our site was helpful for you! That's very encouraging. The Stewarts of/in Hythie were an elusive bunch. That's for sure!
| Quote: | | What had thrown me off the trail was the fact that their first born was named James (my ancestor). For this reason it seemed likely that his father was named James. |
A very reasonable assumption. Traditional naming pattern can always be a good place to start. We have found that the various branches of the Stewarts of Balquhidder who resided in southern Perthshire followed the tradition religiously. However, the pattern from every generation of the Stewarts of/in Hythie would seem to suggest they did not follow the tradition at all.
| Quote: | | I have never found a christening record for John Stewart which leads me to believe that either he was born prior to the marriage of William and Elspet or his mother was Jean Warrender and Elspet Davidson his stepmother. |
I think it would be highly unlikely that John was the son of Jean Warrender. William m Elspet Davidson in 1760 and remained married to her until his death in 1787. He had three recorded children with her in 1762 and 1764. It would be very unlikely for William and Elspet to have only three children together. The average family size in that era was closer to 6-8 children. We know Elspet lived to old age therefore there's no reason to think that they didn't have several other children after 1764 for whom the birth records are simply missing.
William's illegitimate son was born also in 1762. So William's relationship with Jean was clearly an affair, as attested in the OPR for the first Alexander's birth. William would have received a severe punishment for his indiscretion with Jean and it would be very unlikely that he would have had any further children by her. Furthermore, if John was the son of Jean, then it would have made John illegitimate and ineligible to inherit Hythie (whether as owner or senior tenant) without a legal act to declare him legitimate.
What is far more likely is that John (along with probably 2 or 3 other children) was born after 1764 and that their birth records are missing. The OPRs of that vintage are notorious for missing entries -- either the entries were made and are no longer legible, or they were simply never recorded in the first place.
Did you find these records at ScotlandsPeople using their search engine? If so, then I would highly recommend you order the full OPR film from your local Family History Centre and go through it page by page and see if you can spot any entries during that time period that look like they could be additional children for William that ScotlandsPeople might have missed in their index.
Your suggestion that these Stewarts were more correctly "in" Hythie, rather than "of" Hythie is well-taken. I'll have another look at this. You may be correct.
To my knowledge there are no more extant documents from George Stewart regarding family genealogy. The full copies of the originals are displayed on the Stewarts of Hythie page under George's own entry.
Slainte
Ryk
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Ryk Brown
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waukmill
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| Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:27 pm Post subject: Additional Records |
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| Quote: | | What had thrown me off the trail was the fact that their first born was named James (my ancestor). For this reason it seemed likely that his father was named James. |
Jean Stewart ms Leighton's statutory death record lists her father as simply J Leighton no mother named.
Did you find these records at ScotlandsPeople using their search engine? If so, then I would highly recommend you order the full OPR film from your local Family History Centre and go through it page by page and see if you can spot any entries during that time period that look like they could be additional children for William that ScotlandsPeople might have missed in their index.
I am member of the Northeast Scotland and Aberdeenshire Family history Society in Aberdeen, the Family History Society of Buchan in Peterhead and the Highland Family History Society in Inverness. I've hired genealogists and photographers in Scotland. And I make use of Scotlandspeople and LDS films
Your suggestion that these Stewarts were more correctly "in" Hythie, rather than "of" Hythie is well-taken. I'll have another look at this. You may be correct.
I am tempted to hire a genealogist I know in Edinburgh to search the sasines to find out who were the owners of record for the various lands of Hythiie.
Ryk,
I don't know if you are aware that there were two births of a son named James to James and Dorothea Stewart. One in 1829 and another in 1830.
OLD DEER OPR
Mar 27, 1829
James Stewart in Old Deer by his wife Dorothea
Sangster had a son baptized and named James
Witnesses Basil Sangster Aden and William
Davidson Old Deer
Apr 27, 1830
James Stewart in Perscow(sic) by his wife Dorothea
Sangster, had a son baptized and Named James
Witnesses John and Alexander Stewart both in Hythie |
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waukmill
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:11 pm Post subject: William Stuart 4th of Hythie |
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| I just had a thought. According to William Stuart's monument inscription in Fetterangus he was born in 1727. That makes 19 or 20 around the time of the battle of Culloden. Has anyone checked the muster lists of a William Stewart or Stuart? |
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Ryk
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I am member of the Northeast Scotland and Aberdeenshire Family history Society in Aberdeen, the Family History Society of Buchan in Peterhead and the Highland Family History Society in Inverness. I've hired genealogists and photographers in Scotland. And I make use of Scotlandspeople and LDS films |
Ah, very good then! I didn't want to assume anything. The indexes at ScotlandsPeople are certainly vastly superior to the IGI, but sometimes fresh eyes who are looking for a specific entry can spot something that a transcriber can miss. Sounds like you've already thought of that.
Thanks for the additional birth info for the other James in Old Deer. Given the fact that these registrations are exactly one year and one month apart makes me wonder if it's a second registration for the same child. Granted it's not impossible to have two children born 13 months apart, it is still a bit of a challenge.
The clarified dates we can now derive from William's monument cause a bit of a challenge for us. According to his stone, William was born in 1727. We have his grandfather's baptism confirmed as 9 APR 1684. That's a bit tight (but not impossible) for two generations given the average age at marriage for a man in that era was late 20s or early 30s. Most natural children were usually born prior to their father's lawful marriage, rather than after. So, for these dates to fit, then Donald would have to have been born when his father was in his early-mid 20s, say 1705ish. And the same must be true for Donald's age when William was born. However the fact that William's age is given as such a nice round number ("60") on his stone suggests to me that it should be taken as approximate, as in "he was about 60 when he died but we don't know exactly." I would be inclined to push is actual birth a little later, say 1730-32, which would put him more in the typical age range for his marriage in 1760 and gives us a bit of a buffer for his father's birth.
A challenge presented by these dates is that Donald is described in Stewarts of the South as being "the unfortunate youth who was slain at Culloden" (emph. added). Now we know he wasn't slain, but actually fled. However, if Donald was born ca. 1705 and had a teenage son of his own then it would be hard to refer to him as a "youth" in 1745! It's hard to know how much weight to put on the comment "youth" but it makes me a bit nervous of the possibility that we may have conflated two Donalds here.
A date as late as 1730 for William's brith would still make him old enough to have fought at Culloden (though just barely) and since we know his father was a fugitive from Culloden then your suggestion that William was also there makes very good sense. I'm not aware that anyone has thought to check the Muster Rolls on that matter.
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Ryk Brown
Descendant of the Stewarts of Dalveich (Ardvorlich)
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waukmill
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| Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 4:15 pm Post subject: Stewart's Of Hythie |
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Thanks for the additional birth info for the other James in Old Deer. Given the fact that these registrations are exactly one year and one month apart makes me wonder if it's a second registration for the same child. Granted it's not impossible to have two children born 13 months apart, it is still a bit of a challenge.
Ryk,
I don't believe the two records are the same James.
Why would you baptize the same child twice?
I'll send you the two images of the OPR record..
I searched the Scotlandspeople's website for a birth of a William Stewart using the criteria all of Scotland, all variations of the Stewart surname, father Donald and the years 1725 thru 1735 these two records.
19 Jan 1732 Dull, Perthshire
William son of Donald Stewart & Catherine Fraser in Croftnasgilly? in
Grandtully was baptized Donald Stewart & John McCollie witnesses.
19 May 1734 Cromdale and Inverallan, Moray( just inside the Cairngorm mountains close to Culloden)
William son to Donald Stuart(exact spelling) & Elizabeth Nairn in Glenbeg 16?( not clear) and baptized 19 May baptized.
My grandfather always insisted that Stuart was the proper spelling of our ancestors
surname. My father's middle name was Stuart as were many of the middle names of my grandfather's brothers.
Consider that William Stuart is memorialized as Stuart not Stewart on the stone at Fetterangus as is also his son Alexander and grandson Isaac on the neighboring stone. The memorial stone of my great(3) grandfather James Stuart in Old Deer likewise is carved Stuart.
In the Jacobite muster list of 45 there were only two William Stewarts recorded;
Both were in the John Roy Stuart's (Edinburgh)
Both were from Banffshire.
Captain
Stewart, William, Breagach, Banff
Breagach is 30 miles ESE of Glenbeg near Strathdon
Lieutenant
Stewart, William, Clashmore, Banff Taken at Carlisle Aquitted
The only Clashmore I could find in Scotland was near Dornoch in the Highlands.
I did however find a Clashnoir near Glenlivet. This area is approximately 10 miles due east of Glenbeg.
I am still sorting thru records trying to make sense of it all.
Does anyone have ideas about avenues of research? |
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Ryk
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | I don't believe the two records are the same James.
Why would you baptize the same child twice? |
They would not baptize the same child twice but I have seen many instances of duplicate registrations of the same baptism. The Balquhidder and Callendar OPRs are full of them. They often happen in clusters where a whole section of registrations will be repeated but the date is off by a day here or a month there, and they often get recorded as occuring in the year they were entered rather than the year they happened. Thus they can appear to be registered a year and a day, or a year and a month out from the original registration. I've seen these occur where, for some unknown reason, the clerk has re-entered a whole year's worth of registrations, perhaps because some were missed the first time. Or, I've seen whole sections of Anglican baptisms copied into the C of S register with some being duplicate entries that were also recorded at the time of birth -- again where the date is off by a day or a month and gets recorded in the year it was entered instead of the year it occured. However, I've looked at the scans you sent for these two registrations and they are clearly two distinct births. I have no doubt that you are correct about these two baptisms.
| Quote: | 19 Jan 1732 Dull, Perthshire
William son of Donald Stewart & Catherine Fraser in Croftnasgilly? in
Grandtully was baptized Donald Stewart & John McCollie witnesses.
19 May 1734 Cromdale and Inverallan, Moray( just inside the Cairngorm mountains close to Culloden)
William son to Donald Stuart(exact spelling) & Elizabeth Nairn in Glenbeg 16?( not clear) and baptized 19 May baptized. |
I would suggest that neither of these are your William. There were large clans of Stewarts in Grantully and in Cromdale. These baptisms more likely belong to those families.
| Quote: | In the Jacobite muster list of 45 there were only two William Stewarts recorded;
Both were in the John Roy Stuart's (Edinburgh)
Both were from Banffshire. |
I would suggest that neither of these are yours. Again, they were probably from any of the several Stewart branches who were domestic to Banff. There were many Jacobites whose names were either not recorded in the Muster Rolls or whose names did not survive for one reason or another. My own ancestor, Robert Stewart from Comrie is not listed, yet he died at Culloden. Our resident professional genealogist, Gordon MacGregor, author of several books on Perthshire genealogy, assures me that there are many names missing.
| Quote: | | My grandfather always insisted that Stuart was the proper spelling of our ancestors surname. |
This is a common anachronistic belief. The reality is that standardized spellings did not come into practice until the late 1800s. Prior to that point people spelled words the way they thought they sounded. It is not uncommon to find a name spelled one way at birth, another at marriage, and another at death, and with inconsistent variations in several census records. However, we have noticed some common patterns among some of the branches of the Stewarts of Balquhidder where a consistent switch from Stewart to Stuart occurs when the family moves outside the Highland Line or when their social connections seem to have been more Lowland. For example, several branches of the Stewarts of Annat in later generations consistently use the Stuart spelling. One branch of the Stewarts of Glenogle who became deeply involved in the formation of the Hudson Bay Company also consistently use Stuart. So I would not be surprised to find some descendants of this Aberdeen branch adopt the Stuart spelling. As you point out, their grave stones show several generations of this family spelled as Stuart, yet the OPRs and census records for some of these same people show it as Stewart. To insist that one is right and the other is wrong is a modern misconception.
| Quote: | Captain Stewart, William, Breagach, Banff
Lieutenant Stewart, William, Clashmore, Banff Taken at Carlisle Aquitted |
I would suggest that likely neither of these are yours. There was a large contingent of Stewarts in Banff who were descended from The Wolf of Badenoch. It's more likely these Williams were from that clan.
| Quote: | | Does anyone have ideas about avenues of research? |
I'm afraid my expertise is limited to the Balquhidder area. I'm not too knowledgable about resources in Aberdeen. Perhaps one of our other researchers may be able to assist.
Ryk
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Ryk Brown
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waukmill
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| Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 6:43 pm Post subject: Stewarts of Hythie |
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Ryk,
I posted the two recorded births and entries for William Stewart in the Jacobite muster lists to make them known.
The letters of George Stewart and the memorial card in Robert Stewart Clark's papers are compelling evidence of Donald Stewart's origins.
Confirmation could be accomplished by comparing the YDNA of a male descendant of James Stewart, 4th of Ardvorlich and a male descendant of Donald Stewart of Hythie.
Steve |
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Ryk
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| Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 6:05 pm Post subject: Re: Stewarts of Hythie |
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| waukmill wrote: | Ryk,
I posted the two recorded births and entries for William Stewart in the Jacobite muster lists to make them known. |
I misunderstood you. I thought you were suggesting them as possible alternatives. Thanks for the clarification.
| Quote: | | The letters of George Stewart and the memorial card in Robert Stewart Clark's papers are compelling evidence of Donald Stewart's origins. |
I agree. Compelling, yes, but not conculsive. I think it's worth keeping an open eye on the possibility that the tradition may be mistaken. Which is what I though you might have been doing when I thought you were suggesting other alternatives. What makes it most compelling for me is that the tradition survived in two separate branches, and also that we can trace the source of the tradition to a very early stage. But, on the other hand, it wouldn't be the first time I've seen good stories like that later proven wrong. 
| Quote: | | Confirmation could be accomplished by comparing the YDNA of a male descendant of James Stewart, 4th of Ardvorlich and a male descendant of Donald Stewart of Hythie. |
Agreed. If only we had such evidence available to us. Ah well.
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Ryk Brown
Descendant of the Stewarts of Dalveich (Ardvorlich)
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waukmill
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:56 am Post subject: Re: Stewarts of Hythie |
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Ryk,
| Quote: | | The letters of George Stewart and the memorial card in Robert Stewart Clark's papers are compelling evidence of Donald Stewart's origins. |
I agree. Compelling, yes, but not conculsive. I think it's worth keeping an open eye on the possibility that the tradition may be mistaken. Which is what I though you might have been doing when I thought you were suggesting other alternatives. What makes it most compelling for me is that the tradition survived in two separate branches, and also that we can trace the source of the tradition to a very early stage. But, on the other hand, it wouldn't be the first time I've seen good stories like that later proven wrong.
I can remember a visit to my grandfather's house as a boy where he showed me some old photos of our family. Some photos were of men wearing kilts and my grandfather told me that they were of his brothers and uncles and that they where wearing the plaid of the Royal Stewart.
When I asked why would a Walker wear the Stewart plaid, he said that our family fought for "Bonnie Prince Charlie" I never put much thought into that discussion until now.
| Quote: | | Confirmation could be accomplished by comparing the YDNA of a male descendant of James Stewart, 4th of Ardvorlich and a male descendant of Donald Stewart of Hythie. |
Agreed. If only we had such evidence available to us. Ah well.
In the Fetterangus graveyard there seems to be burials of the Hythie Stewarts as late as the 1980s. So it is possible that Hythie Stewarts are residing there in the area today.
There are some sites online that have YDNA results of Stewarts but I can't differentiate sub clans. Do you have a modal example of Ardvorlich YDNA? |
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waukmill
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| Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 1:16 am Post subject: |
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Here is some info I recently found concerning the Hythie Stewarts.
________________________________________________________________
The OPR burials for Old Deer record only two individuals with the surname Stewart or Stuart both named Mary in five entries.
Two of the records are on 27 April 1793 for Mary Stewart in Hythie.
One is the Mortcloth dues the other records the burial in Fetterangus,
This Mary is most likely the twin sister of Margaret born to William Stewart and Elspet Davidson christened 12 August 1762.
The three other entries cover payments made from 20 July 1771 thru 15 July 1773 for the mortcloth of Mary Stewart in the Mains of Pitfour.
Could this be William Stewart's mother; Donald Stewart's wife?
In 1934 the great great great grandson of Donald, John Murray Stewart died in Aberdeen with his usual residence being Howe of Pitfour. John was the son of Isaac Stewart and is buried in Fetterangus.
_______________________________________________________________
I found what I believe to be the marriage of widow Jean Warrender.
A marriage of Jean Grant to Peter Warrender is recorded in the Old Machar OPR on 7 June 1760 with the marriage occurring in Rathen. The couple's residence is Bridge of Don near Aberdeen. The marriage is also recorded in the Lonmay OPR on 24 June 1760. This the only marriage I can find for a Warrender to a woman with the given name Jean in Aberdeenshire between the years 1720 to 1763.
I haven't found a death record for Peter Warrender so far. It seems pretty tragic to die so soon after being married.
Widow Jean Warrender had a boy named Alexander fathered by William Stewart in 1762 Old Deer. |
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Calum
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| Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:22 pm Post subject: Hythie etc |
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Waukmill,
I'm glad to find another cousin in the Stewarts of Hythie line. Alun was able to verify much of what I had and you are providing a further foundation for this line. Sorry I'm just checking now... I had a computer "event" this summer and lost some of my contacts, passwords, etc. I have migrated to a mac, causing myself further difficulties, mainly that my Family Tree Maker program is not currently accessible. However, the best current info on our line now resides on this website, thanks to Ryk (moran taing!) and Chuck.
Welcome to the clan!
Malcolm Stewart Sissons of Medicine Hat |
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waukmill
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| Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:55 pm Post subject: Hythie Stewarts |
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Hi Malcolm,
It's good to hear from a Hythie cousin and fellow mac user. The genealogy program I use is Reunion 9. I've had no problems with it for the past 9 years.
Are you in contact with any direct male Hythie Stewarts who would be willing to participate in YDNA testing? The only way the oral history that has been pasted down through our various families can be validated is by YDNA testing. Today such testing is inexpensive at such companies as Familytreedna in Houston Tx or Ethnoancestry in Edinburgh.
There are 12 Stewart monuments in the Fetterangus graveyard with some burials occurring as late as 1984. Of the burials that I was able to check, they were all Hythie Stewarts.
Telephone listings of Stewarts in the general area yields 6.
The only other problem is finding an Advorlich Stewart?
Do you have any suggestions?
Steve |
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Calum
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| Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 5:26 am Post subject: dna |
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My problem is that I am many generations removed from any UK born relatives. Alun, who does live in the UK, is the spouse of our Stewart cousin so she would not work but maybe a cousin with whom they would be in contact. Needs to be a male Stewart and even then 1 sample can be a bit sketchy.
One would think that our chief, Stewart of Ardvorlich, would provide a control sample. Can you arrange that Ryk????
DNA is very scientific and if we could do that match, it would be very supportive of our genealogy.
Somewhat, but only somewhat, tongue in cheek, I boast to my wife that I am descended from Robert the Bruce whereas she, maiden name Bruce, is probably descended from some peasant who adopted the landlord's name!!!
It is a fascinating challenge, and feasible....
Slàinte
Malcolm |
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