Stewarts of Balquhidder

[steves1966sc]

Hi everyone, my name is Steve Stewart. I am a descendant of John down thru Samuel Stewart and Lydia Harrison in Surry County NC in the late 1700's. I am trying to find out if Dr John Stewart is the son of Walter Stewart 7th laird of Gartnafuaran, Scotland. I have found websites that say he could be Walter's son, or he could be a James Stewart's son.

The James Stewart was registered as a land holder in New York in the 1650's. As far as I can find no one knows who John's father is. I know there have been Stewarts that descend from John that have done DNA test. I have found were two Stewart males living on both coasts of America that match perfect but were like 15th or so cousins that branched from John. I no longer have the info because my old computer had a lot of my info was struck by lightning and I can't find the info now. I have searched for that same info with no luck. Is there anyone out there that has any DNA research that can put Dr. John's descendants as a match with Stewarts from Scotland? For other people interested in the Stewarts of NC I have a lot of info on them you can contact me at. Thanks for any help.

Steve

[Jared]

Walter Stewart, 7th of Gartnafuaran, had a third son named John, according to Duncan Stewart's 1739 history and genealogy of the Stewarts. Based on when Walter was born (circa 1620), most likely Walter began having children during the 1640s or 1650s. Walter's youngest child would mostly likely have been born in the 1660s or 1670s.

So, based just on the names and the chronology, it is certainly possible that Dr. John Stewart is the same as Walter's third son John. Unfortunately we can't do anything more than guess, because we have found no further record of John. Could he have left Scotland and gone to America? Sure. Did he? Who knows.

In the past, I have observed that, based on what we know of the names of Dr. John's sons (Samuel, David, John, and William), "Walter" is unlikely to have been the name of his father -- it would more likely be Samuel (a name that was popular in the family of Robert, second son of Walter Stewart, 7th of Gartnafuaran). But of course we can't be sure, since the known information on Dr. John's family has gaps.

You mentioned Y-Chromosome DNA testing as a way to see if the descendants of Dr. John Stewart are a branch of the Gartnafuaran family. That's an excellent idea, but at this time we have some serious obtacles standing in our way:

1) The senior male line of the Gartnafuaran family is known only down to 1815 or so, when the senior representative of this family was a clerk in London. It's very possible that there are living Stewart descendants of the Gartnafuarans, but we haven't found any yet, and they haven't found us. So we can't do any DNA testing on the senior branch of the Gartnafuarans.

2) There are many living male-line descendants of Robert Stewart, Covenanter (1655-1714), second son of Walter, 7th of Gartnafuaran, but at this time we don't know if any of them have had their Y-Chromosome DNA checked and recorded. Recently I have been in contact with a son and daughter of one of the sisters of Philip Battle Stewart II (1922-1995), who was a male-line descendant of Robert, but as far as I know none of Philip's male-line kin have had their y-DNA tested. If we were to obtain such a test on Robert's male-line descendants, we would have a Gartnafuaran sample to test against the descendants of Dr. John Stewart.

Anyway, sorry to hear about your computer troubles. That's pretty frustrating and aggravating, no doubt. Let us know if you are able to find out about the DNA results of Dr. John's descendants. Then, if we ever get some DNA tests on Robert Stewart's descendants, we can do a match up and see if these families are related or not.
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Descendant of the Stewarts of Londonderry, N.H., a cadet branch of the Stewarts of Gartnafuaran

[Ryk]

Steve,
Thanks for your posting. And thanks to Jared for a most thorough and competent response. It appears that Jared is already familiar with your family. But for other readers who may be less familiar, it might be helpful if you post a little more detailed information on the family of Dr. John. Or if this info is already posted elsewhere then perhaps you might provide a link to direct us.
Thanks
Ryk
_________________
Ryk Brown
Descendant of the Stewarts of Dalveich (Ardvorlich)
Sliochd Iain Dubh Mhor

[Jared]

Here are a few links to the Dr. John Stewart family:

http://yeahpot.com/stewart/drjohn.html

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~harrisonrep/Johnson/JHN0796part1.htm

http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/STEWART/1997-09/0873155175

That last link shows Dr. John Stewart as born in 1625 rather than circa 1660, which I think is too early -- but if true, would definitely rule out Dr. John as our John, third son of Walter.
_________________
Descendant of the Stewarts of Londonderry, N.H., a cadet branch of the Stewarts of Gartnafuaran

[Ryk]

This is a tough one. I'd be most interested to learn where the Gartnafuaran tradition of Dr. John's birth originates. Is it a very old family tradition? Or does it originate with an earlier genealogists spurious research? Certainly the onomostics are problematic in trying to connect Dr. John with Gartnafuaran. The name Walter does not appear among the descendants of Dr. John and the name Samuel is not found among the Scottish Gartnafuarans.

But there are a number of reasons why an onomastic argument is problematic in itself here. Scottish emigrants often gave up the "old ways" after moving to the new world. The old Scots naming patterns become unreliable in North America. Here in Canada I don't see evidence of the naming pattern lasting more than a generation or two after immigration. Some abandoned it immediately.

Also Biblical names were very popular in the 17th century, especially among Puritans. If Dr. John was living in a somewhat Puritan community he may have been more influenced by the local customs, rather than the old ways.

Also, it would appear that Dr. John was quite old at the time he had these children. And so was his wife, for that matter. What's the chance that this could have been a second marriage for Dr. John and the records of his first marriage no longer exist (or never did). Dr. John could have named his first son of his first marriage Walter and we may never know.

Steve, I think there are two key avenues that I would encourage you to pursue. One is the DNA route which has already been discussed. The other is chasing down the source of the Gartnafuaran origins and trying to evaluate how reliable it is.

I know it's very frustrating dealing with 17th century immigrants because the documentary evidence of their origins is usually so sparse, if at all.

Ryk
_________________
Ryk Brown
Descendant of the Stewarts of Dalveich (Ardvorlich)
Sliochd Iain Dubh Mhor

[Belinda]

Jared

How certain are you about the 1655 birth date for your ancestor Robert the Covenanter, son of Walter, 7th Laird of Gartnafuaran? I can't find a reference for this date in your Gartnafuaran files and wondered where it came from.

I'm still wondering about the coincidence of births in Kilmadock parish, where a Walter Stewart had children baptised, Elspeth 1646, Robert 1647, Marie 1648, Alexander 1650, Johne 1651 and Christan 1651. I realise that it is more likely that Walter 7th Gart had his children born at Gartnafuaran and baptised in Balquhidder, but as the Balq register has not survived for that period we can't be certain.

In my wilder flights of fancy I can imagine Robert as the eldest son and rightful heir to Gartnafuaran, but having to go into hiding after the defeat at Bothwell Brig. There's a phrase in your ancestor's letter which reads "My grandfather [Robert] had a good estate in Scotland when he fled from it" So Alexander, the second son, then became 8th Laird of Gartnafuaran.

Regardless of the Gartnafuaran connection, Johne b 1651 is a candidate for Steve's ancestor Dr John Stewart but as he is only one of at least 20 different John Stewarts baptised in Kilmadock parish between 1627 and 1667 there's nothing to say that he is the right one.

Och Aye

Belinda

[steves1966sc]

Hi eveyone, I know it will be tough to prove Dr. John's ancestry but I would like to look at his wife's. Her family was the hereditary accountants of the Vatican for a few hundred years. Very rich and powerful family. Would it make sense that the rich and/or people of noble birth would marry other people of the same class? I would not expect that the peasant class would marry into the rich or noble birth. I would not expect Elizabeth's dad would let her marry any old John (sorry for the pun). I don't know if the Alburtis family was considered nobles but I know they were rich and held lots of land in Italy. I would think that would be as good as noble in those times. I would believe that John would have to show Elizabeth's dad that he came from noble blood or something as close to noble as possible. Just a thought for everyone to think about. I don't pretend to know a lot about how life was in the late 1600's or how you would be considered noble at that time. I hope everyone will give their point of vew because I don't know if I am right or wrong. Thanks, Steve

[Ryk]

Steve, yes it's true that people tended to marry within their class or very close to it. There are certainly exceptions, but marriages within the same class would be the norm. However, it would not be accurate to describe the Gartnafuarans as "noble". You'd have to go back about 10 generations to hit noble blood. At best they'd be lesser gentry. And I don't believe Gartnafuaran was an exceptionally wealthy estate, unlike, say, Annat. So if John's wife was an exceptionally rich Italian debutante that would make me even more skeptical of the Gartnafuaran connection.
Ryk
_________________
Ryk Brown
Descendant of the Stewarts of Dalveich (Ardvorlich)
Sliochd Iain Dubh Mhor

[Jared]

[Jared]

On the question of social status as it would pertain to the marriage of Dr. John and Elizabeth, it also depends on the actual status of Elizabeth's family. The Alburtis family may have been wealthy and powerful in Italy, but did Elizabeth come from the senior line of her family, or a lesser known and not as wealthy branch?

Ryk is right that the Stewarts of Gartnafuaran were not actually a noble family -- that is, they were not titled nobility with a seat in parliament, nor were they feudal lairds or Landed Gentry. Ryk's description of lesser gentry may be the right term, at least for a few of their generations, but mostly they were tacksmen or feudal tenants of higher ranking lairds and noblemen. They were of noble descent, of course, and indeed of royal descent, and that fact probably enhanced their local reputation and esteem in Perthshire, but as for their actual social status, Ryk is correct that a member of the Gartnafuaran line, especially a younger son, would not be of the correct social rank to marry a member of an influential family of Italian bankers.
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Descendant of the Stewarts of Londonderry, N.H., a cadet branch of the Stewarts of Gartnafuaran

[Jared]

At Ancestry.com's Stewart message board, this very interesting message was just posted about the family of Dr. John Stewart:

[Jared]

There are y-DNA test results for a descendant of Dr. John Stewart including in Belinda's Stewart DNA document, here:

http://www.chuckspeed.com/balquhidder/history/StewartYDNA.doc

Based on those results, it appears unlikely that Dr. John Stewart belonged to any of the branches of the Stewarts of Balquhidder, which would definitively rule him out as John, third son of Walter Stewart, 7th of Gartnafuaran.
_________________
Descendant of the Stewarts of Londonderry, N.H., a cadet branch of the Stewarts of Gartnafuaran

[Ryk]

[steves1966sc]

hi everyone,i would like to thank all of you for resonding so quickly to my question.the dna link above gave me my answer.i would like to ask now if there are any links out there to find other stewarts with the same dna markers as dr.johns descendants.like maybe other branches of stewarts.thanks for all your help steve stewart