 | Stewarts of Balquhidder
Genealogical Discussions for Clan Stewart of Balquhidder.
http://www.chuckspeed.com/balquhidder/balquhidder%20stewarts.html
|
|
|
COMPULSORY UPGRADE!!! Request an upgrade NOW! 32+ Pre-installed Modifications! 3 Server Locations to choose from: USA, UK and JAPAN.
12th December 2012 - HostmyBB: All servers are upgraded to run using SSD drive. Click Here to report problems!
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Belinda
Moderator
Joined: 20 Jul 2007
Posts: 298
:
Location: Australia
Items
|
 Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:53 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
Australian death certificates give the mother's first name and maiden surname, if known, so they are very valuable for researchers in that regard. If not known she would be listed as Janet unknown, not Janet Stewart. That's why it would be useful for Sherree to get a copy of the certificate, to see exactly which it says.
_________________
Descendant of the Stewarts of Craigton (Annat), Lorrachan (Glenbuckie) and Brackland (Gartnafuaran) |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Ryk
Site Admin
Joined: 19 Jul 2007
Posts: 1003
:
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Items
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Belinda wrote: | | Australian death certificates give the mother's first name and maiden surname, if known, so they are very valuable for researchers in that regard. If not known she would be listed as Janet unknown, not Janet Stewart. That's why it would be useful for Sherree to get a copy of the certificate, to see exactly which it says. |
That is VERY helpful! Indeed if Sherree can get that certificate and confirm Robert's mother's maiden name we could have a very solid connection then! Thanks for the clarification, Belinda.
_________________
Ryk Brown
Descendant of the Stewarts of Dalveich (Ardvorlich)
Sliochd Iain Dubh Mhor |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
shelaw
Gille Mór / Banoglach Mór
Joined: 03 Sep 2010
Posts: 30
:
Location: Perth Western Australia
Items
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 2:58 am Post subject: I have some more info |
|
|
Hi Ryk.
Robert's wife Mary Mccallum's parents names were John Mccallum and Janet Clarke. (another Janet!)
The odd name out in Robert's offspring seems to be the name Marjory/Margery that they gave to their first born daughter.
The Death Certificates in Australia often have errors in them particuarly
when it is an aged person from another country that has died. Robert was about 79 years old when he died in Australia and it is not known how accurate he was in telling his children what his parent's names were and if they were given and transcribed correctly in 1864 at the time f his death.
It is the name Margory that may hold some answers, she must have been a sister or in the maternal line of Robert somewhere. There does not appear to be the name Margory on his wife Mary Mccallum's side.
What do you think? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
shelaw
Gille Mór / Banoglach Mór
Joined: 03 Sep 2010
Posts: 30
:
Location: Perth Western Australia
Items
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 3:04 am Post subject: Janet Stewart |
|
|
The name Janet Stewart does appear on Robert's Death certificate as his mother's name.
But then why was the name Margory used before Janet for their daughters?
Thanks for all your help, Belinda and Ryk on this perplexing question! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Belinda
Moderator
Joined: 20 Jul 2007
Posts: 298
:
Location: Australia
Items
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2010 4:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
I've found out a bit about Margery Stewart's later life, but not her ancestry.
I think she married Walter McBeath on 6 Dec 1849 in Kilmadock Parish, Perthshire. They had two children, Robert McBeath, b 28 Feb 1850 and Walter McBeath, b 24 Aug 1851, both baptised in Port of Menteith parish, Perthshire.
I think the children died, as Walter and Margery (surname spelt McBeth), Scottish, came to Australia as Assisted Immigrants in 1852, arriving at Geelong, Victoria on 5 Jan 1853, on the ship James T Foord from Liverpool. No other McBeths are listed on that ship so the boys didn't accompany them.
Belinda
_________________
Descendant of the Stewarts of Craigton (Annat), Lorrachan (Glenbuckie) and Brackland (Gartnafuaran) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
shelaw
Gille Mór / Banoglach Mór
Joined: 03 Sep 2010
Posts: 30
:
Location: Perth Western Australia
Items
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 3:09 am Post subject: Thank you both |
|
|
It does seem a bit of a quandary. I shall have to accept that Robert's family may never be certain. Though the two families that you have both suggested are possibilities and thank you both, Ryk and Belinda for your trouble.
I suppose as Janet Stewart was noted as his mother on his Death Certificate, I would have to lean towards the Janet Stewart family.
As Robert was probably illegitimate that would explain both the difficulties in locating his family with surety and his own difficulties of knowing his date of birth and how old he was!
I don't know if Scottish records list the offspring on Death Certificates, if they do I should try to locate the death Certs of Duncan and Janet Stewart, they might tell me something one way or the other? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
shelaw
Gille Mór / Banoglach Mór
Joined: 03 Sep 2010
Posts: 30
:
Location: Perth Western Australia
Items
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:01 am Post subject: Hand writing |
|
|
I have the handwritting on Margery Stewarts Birth Record from the Scotlands People Site but I don't know how to upload the image of the handwriting onto this site.
Please help me learn how to do that.
It looks like Western Dunduass, Deenofurn, or Dunduess???[/quote] |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ryk
Site Admin
Joined: 19 Jul 2007
Posts: 1003
:
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Items
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 2:34 am Post subject: |
|
|
Sherree
Unfortunately there is no way to upload an attachment to a posting on this forum. The forum software does not allow it (yet). For now, you will have to email it to me. I believe you already have my email address. You can send it to me there and I'll have a look at it. However from your own readings above my first guess would be that it's probably Wester Dundurn. If so, that's very interesting as my own Stewarts lived right next door at that time.
| Quote: | | I shall have to accept that Robert's family may never be certain. |
Unfortunately, barring additional evidence, this is true. However, we still have some open leads here, so don't give up. Belinda's explanation about Aussie death certificates and your acquisition of Robert's certificate significantly increases our confidence level regarding Robert's birth.
When we don't have "proof" we move to "balance of probability." There are many families that we have successfully accounted for by "balance of probability" and lacking absolute proof. Where we say, "given the evidence presently available to us this seems to be the most likely match and we can eliminate some/most/all other candidate families." For balance of probability accounting we need to look at all the evidence in favour of our hypothesis and all the evidence against it, and weigh the lot.
Assuming Robert's death certificate to be correct, then we know Robert was born about 1792 in Balquhidder to parents Duncan Stewart and Janet Stewart. We know that the Balquhidder parish register shows only ONE family in the parish at that time with parents having those names. And we know that your Robert fits consistently with that family based on the assumption that Robert was illegitimate.
The only other candidate is the family of Duncan Stewart and Janet Ferguson. For Robert to fit with this family we must presume the death certificate is not correct on Robert's mother's maiden name and has recorded her married name instead. The case for the Auckleskine family is stronger.
Is there any evidence against? Unfortunately, yes. The Auchleskine family, as we've been calling them, is actually Duncan Stewart in Summerline, son of John mac Donnachaidh Stewart in Dallanlaggan. (Line 2 of Branch IX of the Stewarts of Glenbuckie. Belinda has provided the link above.) This Duncan is described in Stewarts of the South in rather unflattering terms, as: "Duncan, who is what they call a Moss-Laird, in Summerline, Flanders moss [on] Blair Drummond's property, who has four sons [who are] all under age. This Duncan was a real profligate and reduced himself and his father's family to perfect slavery in that place." Parish records indicate that Duncan and Janet actually had six (lawful) sons born.
There was a census taken in 1814 of families who lived on Blair Drummond Moss (found here: http://www.chuckspeed.com/balquhidder/history/Blair_Drummond_Moss_Census_1814.htm ) and this Duncan's family is found in that census. The 1814 census provides us with a good bit of information on the family and shows them residing at #5 Robertson's Lane on The Moss and having moved there from Balquhidder five years prior. They are shown as sub-tenants to Archibald McLaren. They are one of the very few sub-tenants so-recorded anywhere on The Moss, which fits with the description above that Duncan had "reduced himself and his father's family." The census also indicates that the previous tenant was John Stewart -- probably Duncan's father. They are shown to own 2 cats, 4 chickens, and 4 cows -- however the census does not indicate which of these animals belonged to the Stewarts and which belonged to the senior tenant, the McLarens. More than likely the animals (at least the cows which were very expensive) belonged to the McLarens.
The 1814 census also shows that their eldest two (lawful) sons, John and James both died from Colic as toddlers. Thus Stewarts of the South (written ca. 1818) shows only four sons. The census also shows their surviving sons: Alexander, James (II), John (II), and Donald.
What the 1814 Moss census does NOT show is...Robert. Thus, for Robert to belong to this family we must also presume that Robert was not living with his birth family in 1814 and that he was not mentioned by the author of Stewarts of the South.
Robert would have been 22 years old in 1814, so it's not at all unreasonable that he could have been out on his own, perhaps even working as a shepherd in Comrie already.
So, you can see that the list of assumptions we need to make in order for our theory to work is getting longer. They are all reasonable assumptions; none of them is a stretch. But the longer the list gets the weaker our probability case gets.
I don't think there's a scientific way to measure the probability here, but I would say it's better than 50% in favour of the Auckeskine family. I would say we have a "good" case here, but not a "great" one.
Let's move on to Margery. (Thanks to Belinda for her awesome work in identifying Margery's likely marriage, children and emigration!) Why did Robert and Mary name their eldest daughter Margery? Don't know, but here are some possibilities:
Traditional naming custom was followed very strictly in southern Perthshire, but not 100%. One of the most instructive cases we've found where it was broken, and we could show why, was a family who named their eldest son after the father's younger brother. In this case, the younger brother had died in military service just prior to the birth of his namesake nephew. Thus it was clear that the family felt honouring the dead brother was a valid enough reason to violate custom. Margery could be an example of something similar. However, as you've already shown, Mary McCallum had no sister named Marjory, and if we have correctly identified Robert's birth family then he had no sister named Margery either. So the honoured Margery must be someone more distant than a sibling. If that's the reason.
Another possibility (and I think more likely) is this: Margery was used as a substitute name for Margaret. The Gaelic form of Margaret was Maidhreadh, which sounds similar in its pronunciation to "Mary" and for which the most common Anglo substitute name was Mary. In the same way that Peter was often used as a substitute name for Patrick and Daniel in place of Donald. Thus, Margery and Mary can be considered synonymous for the purpose of following the naming custom. So, Margery may have actually been named after her mother. Since both grandmothers were named Janet we can see why Robert and Mary named their other daughter Janet/Jessie. But shouldn't Janet be first? Yes. So, take note that Margery was born two years and eight months after her parents were married. That's an uncharacteristically long time to wait for that era. Most couples "got busy" immediately after being married and 95% of couples had their first child born within the first year of marriage. If Robert and Mary had a child born in the first year of their marriage and it was a daughter, then she would have been named Janet. In which case Margery would be their second daughter. Assuming the first Janet died in early childhood then their next daughter would have re-used the name Janet. And, for some reason, the earlier Janet's birth was not recorded -- not unusual.
| Quote: | | I don't know if Scottish records list the offspring on Death Certificates |
They do not. What they might list is the name of the person (often a child of the deceased) who registered the death. So, you'd have to be lucky and hope that either Duncan or Janet's death was registered by their illegitimate son Robert. Unfortunately that's unlikely. Also, given that Duncan was born in 1769 and Janet would have been close in age, then it's most likely they died prior to civil death registrations so there probably is no death certificate for either of them. The only death record you'll have might be a will or the gravestone. We have a copy of the transcriptions of all the gravestones in southern Perthshire and we have not found any gravestone for this couple. And if Duncan had driven his family into poverty as Stewarts of the South suggests, then he probably had no need of a will.
I think we've made huge progress on this family.
Ryk
_________________
Ryk Brown
Descendant of the Stewarts of Dalveich (Ardvorlich)
Sliochd Iain Dubh Mhor |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
shelaw
Gille Mór / Banoglach Mór
Joined: 03 Sep 2010
Posts: 30
:
Location: Perth Western Australia
Items
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 3:42 am Post subject: Stewart |
|
|
Hi Ryk and Belinda
Thanks your for all your help, and it was certainly a big help!
I am a lot clearer on the possibilities and probabilities for my Robert Stewart family.
Your information has been very helpful.
One problem with Robert's birthplace is that it was noted as Comrie on his death Cert (Australia) the only place he mentioned Balquhidder as his birthplace was on the 1851 census in Scotland. I wonder why that was?
I suppose at least he was still alive to give the correct information in 1851.
I have been doing my own study of some names and families through Scotlands People, I will let you know if an epiphany occurs!!!
Thanks agin Ryk and Belinda for all your help on this perplexing Stewart issue!  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ryk
Site Admin
Joined: 19 Jul 2007
Posts: 1003
:
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Items
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 4:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | One problem with Robert's birthplace is that it was noted as Comrie on his death Cert |
 Well, there goes that idea! Yup, that crumbling sound you hear is our theory for the birth of Robert collapsing around us. 
Okay, now we have two pieces of evidence with contradictory origins for Robert and no real way to know, at this point, which to prefer. So now we have to look in Comrie as well as Balquhidder. The difficulty with Comrie is, as I mentioned, that the population of non-Balquhidder Stewarts is much higher.
The Comrie OPR has the following baptismal entry: Robert Stewart in Dundurn, 09 JUL 1795... with no additional information. I have the following note attached to the entry: | Quote: | | Robert Stewart in Dundurn is listed just with his own name between two baptismal registrations. It's hard to tell if he may have been the sponsor for one of the baptisms or if he had a child baptised and the record was never completed. It simply says "Robert Stewart in Dundurn." The other two records are: Alexander MacGregor in Carroglen and his spouse Janet McCouan had their lawful daughter baptised named Janet. and Daniel MacLaren in Ardveich and his spouse Elisabeth had their daughter baptised, Catharine. begotten in fornication. (the entry is two pages after the Robert Stewart in Dundurn entry above, but could it be the completion of the previous entry? |
However, the "Robert Stewart in Dundurn entry above" which I refer to in my notes I can't seem to locate. Dundurn at that time belonged to Lt. Robert McNab.
Hmmm...hate to say it...back to square one. I'll keep looking and see what else I can find.
_________________
Ryk Brown
Descendant of the Stewarts of Dalveich (Ardvorlich)
Sliochd Iain Dubh Mhor |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
shelaw
Gille Mór / Banoglach Mór
Joined: 03 Sep 2010
Posts: 30
:
Location: Perth Western Australia
Items
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 1:25 am Post subject: Thanks!! |
|
|
Hi Ryk
At least Dundurn has been confirmed as the word and not Duchaw!!
Yes, the plot thickens!
Thanks you so much for your much appreciated efforts with the illusive Robert. I too will check out the record that you mention.
Thanks again!
Sherree |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
shelaw
Gille Mór / Banoglach Mór
Joined: 03 Sep 2010
Posts: 30
:
Location: Perth Western Australia
Items
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 10:26 am Post subject: More information |
|
|
Hi Ryk
Also the information on Robert Stewart's Australian Death Certificate could be incorrect, sometimes the wrong information is given by the witness to the Registrar.
In this case the witness was his son John who was only 13 years old when they left Scotland. He was 25 when giving the information to the Registrar.
I am starting to wonder if Duncan and Janet are the right names for his parents.
So at the moment, I can only be sure of a connection between the 35 year old Robert Stewart and his wife Mary Mccallum having their children at born/living at Dundurn, or Wester Dundurn.
I don't know if a family can be traced with this scant information. What do you think?  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ryk
Site Admin
Joined: 19 Jul 2007
Posts: 1003
:
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Items
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 3:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Sherree
Thanks for sending the two census records. You asked:
| Quote: | | I was wondering are they farm names, district names or what? |
They are farm names.
The 1841 shows Robert and his family residing at Duchruin. The properties enumerated just before and after were Auchinner and Dalchruin. Preceded by Mailerbeg and followed by Dalclathick. This shows the enumerator starting at the bottom of Glen Artney and going up.
The 1851 shows Ducheran (this is only a spelling variant of Duchruin and is the same place) at the top of the page, so we can't see what comes before, but the next two properties in line are Auchinner and Dalclathick. This shows the enumerator starting at the top of Glen Artney and going down.
Both of these show a consistent location for Duchruin/Ducheran as being somewhere very close to the current location of Dalchruin as Peter McNaughton suggested. Dalchruin = "round field". Duchruin probably = Dubh Chruinn = "Dark Round". Which probably indicates that Duchruin was another residence on the Dalchruin farm and that its house was darker. But I'm just speculating on the meaning. What's clear is that Peter is correct that the location is on the same property as, or adjacent to, Dalchruin in upper-mid Glen Artney.
Margery's Baptism record is definitely "Wester Dundurn". That would suggest to me that at the time of Margery's birth Robert was residing at Wester Dundurn and then he got a job as a shepherd up in Glen Artney and moved there before 1841 and probably as early as 1830 as the Callander baptism for Duncan seems to indicate he was probably living at Duchruin in Glen Artney at that time.
You're quite right about the possibility for error on the death certificate. If Robert was residing in Comrie parish by the time of his wedding (at the latest, and possibly sooner) and he had all his children born in Comrie parish then all they would remember as adults themselves would be growing up in Comrie. This could explain their (perhaps mistaken) impression that Robert was himself born in Comrie. The 1851 census evidence was presumably given by Robert himself and thus is probably more reliable. However census records are prone to error too.
Thus the Duncan and Janet candidate that we preferred above would still seem to be the best looking candidate so far, but I think there's sufficient enough doubt that I wouldn't feel comfortable stating it any more strongly than that. In other words, assuming the Comrie reference in Robert's death record is NOT correct, but assuming that the names of his birth in the same record ARE correct, and then assuming that the 1851 census record IS correct in giving his birth place as Balquhidder, then there is only one family in the Balquhidder OPR that appears to match, but in order for Robert to belong to that family we must presume that he was illegitimate and that he was not recorded in the 1814 Moss Census information about his family. It's possible, but the case is sufficiently weakened that I wouldn't have confidence in it being correct.
| Quote: | | I don't know if a family can be traced with this scant information. What do you think? |
I think the sincere answer to that is "I don't know" but that's exactly what we're trying to do and we may be close to hitting a brick wall here unless some further information can be found. We have some very good clues here, but unfortunately we can't get those clues to point us to anything solid yet. At this point we still have not pursued the family of William Stewart who was on the same ship to see if that produces any leads. But, unfortunately, it does appear we're coming close to running out of leads.
I haven't uploaded it yet, but I've prepared an article on your family for our "Other Stewarts" page where we house those families that we're not sure about yet. Hopefully some other researcher will stumble across the article with additional information. I've seen it happen before.
Don't give up yet.
Ryk
_________________
Ryk Brown
Descendant of the Stewarts of Dalveich (Ardvorlich)
Sliochd Iain Dubh Mhor |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
shelaw
Gille Mór / Banoglach Mór
Joined: 03 Sep 2010
Posts: 30
:
Location: Perth Western Australia
Items
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 2:20 am Post subject: Thank you |
|
|
Thank you Ryk for all that information.
Though there is nothing too definate yet, maybe after uploading our family's information, someone may be able to place them. Here's hoping!
I will keep an eye out for our family in the Other Stewarts section of your site, thank you so much for putting that together for us.
The information on the farm names and Dalchruin is very interesting.
Thank you very much for your time and effort on my family, it is very much appreciated.
Sherree |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
shelaw
Gille Mór / Banoglach Mór
Joined: 03 Sep 2010
Posts: 30
:
Location: Perth Western Australia
Items
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:05 am Post subject: Also re: William Stewart's family |
|
|
Hi Ryk
We are 99.9999% sure that William Stewart and his family who migrated on the Miltiades ship at the same time our Robert did, were from another County, perhaps Argyle, and not related to us.
Also we have often wondered why Robert Stewart and Mary Mccallum married in 1825 when they were both in their early thirties, had they been married before? I haven't been able to find any evidence or explanation of their late age of marriage either.
Thanks
Sherree |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
